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Dahmer, Bundy, Berkowitz, Ridgway, Gacy. When you hear names like these, it elicits feelings of horror and lots of questions. Are they monsters? Were they born without empathy, a conscience, or remorse? It’s easy to answer yes, but what we should be asking about all violent offenders is, “What made them that way?”
Was it inevitable they’d commit horrible acts against other human beings regardless of their upbringing or did traumatic circumstances awaken some primal beast inside them?
Society desperately yearns to know how these kinds of criminals think, if they can be rehabilitated, and if we’ll ever evolve enough as a society to proactively mitigate a murderous pathology from developing. Laura Brand has had these same kinds of questions on her mind as well and is driven to see what makes these individuals seek fulfillment in someone else’s suffering. She’s sat across the table from men who’ve victimized women fitting her exact description to get inside their head and understand that compulsion.
Although these criminals often thrive on manipulation, domination, and control, Laura is persistent in getting answers that won’t come by simply condemning someone to death or life imprisonment. Known as “The Siren of San Quentin” she’s compiling some of the most extensive research ever amassed on individuals we must reluctantly admit our culture somehow produced.
There’s a saying that neurotics build castles in the air and psychotics move in. Are serial killers all incapable of rational thought? Let’s see if this modern-day Clarice Starling can help us find out.
RECOIL: So when did you become interested in profiling serial killers?
Laura Brand: It just kind of gradually happened. I read Nancy Drew novels and then moved onto true crime. My dad said when I was about middle-school age I started writing about serial killers and started reading the FBI profiler books. It just kept going. When I got to college I studied forensic psychology and just consumed everything I could reading-wise. I was 26 when I went to San Quentin for the first time to interview a serial killer, Lawrence Bittaker, also known as “the toolbox killer.”
What was that first interview like?
LB: It was very scary. It was my first prison/death row experience, and you picture a movie where there’s a glass wall and a phone, but when you get inside, it’s a little cage, like a dog kennel, and they lock you in that cage with the serial killer. He’s uncuffed the entire time and you’re just locked in this tiny little space with them.
What do you think the patterns are that all serial killers exhibit behaviorally?
LB: Each one is so different and then you have to look at organized versus disorganized offenders, and then there’s four different types of serial killers as well. I’d say if you wanted to find an underlying thread among them all that the main thing I see is childhood neglect and abuse is the big one. I’d say even neglect even more than abuse as well as a breakdown typically with the mother. They all have some type of mommy issue and that’s pretty much where it starts if they target women. I have seen serial killers that target men and I’ll find a daddy issue, so it’s almost as if they go toward the parent where there was a breakdown or the sex of that parent.
What are the categories of serial killers?
LB: The two are missionary and visionary which are disorganized. You start by classifying with organized or disorganized. Missionary and visionary are the ones you see who are psychotic and have serious mental illness like schizophrenia or dissociative identity disorder. They’re under some type of delusion because they think God is telling them or a dog is telling them. That’s where you see disorganized mentally ill serial killers.
How do organized killers break down?
LB: Sexual sadists, those are your lust and thrill killers. Some people differentiate between lust and thrill, but they’re really very similar. The fourth is the power and control oriented. These are the ones who are on a quest for total domination and power.
So an example of disorganized killer would be someone like Richard Chase and an organized killer example would be someone like Ted Bundy?
LB: Correct.
Who would you say an example of the fourth category would be?
LB: I would say a really good example, would be BTK [Dennis Rader]. He’d also fall under the lust category. He was really on a quest for power.
Have you ever interviewed BTK?
LB: Yes, but I can’t say much right now because we’re filming a series called the Serial Killer Whisperer and he might possibly be interviewed in it. We’re pitching it to networks right now, but we’re trying to get a lot of interviews from people on California’s death row before it’s shut down.
What will they do with those criminals after California dismantles death row? Will they just become life sentencers?
LB: I believe so. This is all Newsom’s doing. He’s turning San Quentin into a rehabilitation center, so all the death-row inmates are transferring to other prisons in California.
How do you feel about that decision? Do you think capital punishment works as a deterrent for this kind of crime?
LB: I don’t really know if it’s a deterrent. If you look at all the mass shooters and serial killers we have in America it doesn’t seem to be much of a deterrent. I think they should be kept alive for research purposes so we can gain information that’ll lead to prevention of these types of crimes.
Do they all tend toward having neglect and trauma in their backgrounds?
LB: That’s pretty consistent. It’s not all the time, but it’s a big correlation among all of them.
Do you think all serial killers are psychopaths or sociopaths?
LB: No, and I’ve met ones who are not classified as such and even some who’ve turned themselves in because they knew they couldn’t stop. The high majority do have some sort of antisocial personality trait, but not every single one.
Is it possible to be a prosocial psychopath or sociopath?
LB: They’re very social, but antisocial is just a term put onto sociopaths and psychopaths that’s sort of all encompassing. Most of the psychopaths I’ve worked with are extremely charismatic and socially developed. They have almost above-average social intelligence skills, which is how they’re able to acquire victims. They’re amazing at ruses, talking, getting people to trust them, and coming off as unassuming.
What is the fulfillment you think all serial killers receive from being so brutal?
LB: It’s an outlet, like a coping mechanism for their rage and pain, but it’s also that they’re getting a thrill out of it too. A lot have reported to me that it’s not just necessarily the kill itself, it’s also getting away with it and feeling that power that they’re smarter than law enforcement.
That seems somewhat narcissistic. Do you think that trait tends to be a commonality among them as well?
LB: Narcissism is also included in antisocial personality disorder that’s measured when you’re testing for it, so yes.
What are the patterns of how they stalk their victims?
LB: It varies. They’ll come up with the ruse they want to use. Like Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris bought a Polaroid camera and went down to the beach to photograph girls and tell them they were model scouts or working for Hollywood. That’s a common one I see. Rodney Alcala also used that one. Back in the ’70s hitchhiking was also big and many of them would pull over and offer someone a ride and that’s how they were abducted. Some of the more recent ones have used Craigslist to post something they’re selling to get people to come, and others look for escorts on there.
How is a serial killer different than mass murderers or someone else who has killed more than one person?
LB: The biggest thing is with mass murderers they’re taking out a large number of people in a short amount of time, like a school shooter. With serial killers there’s typically at least a 30-day cooling off period. There’s a cycle they’ll go through before the process starts back up of them hunting and trolling to capture and kill. A serial killer will have a signature aspect that’s unique to them that can link them to other murders.
Why do you think more men tend to be serial killers than women?
LB: There are a lot of theories. A lot think it could be genetics, testosterone, and just that we’re built differently. It’s also a higher percentage of men who have antisocial personality traits, so that could be a factor as well.
How does the occurrence of serial murder in the U.S. compare to other countries?
LB: It’s very hard to tell because many of those countries don’t keep records like we do here, especially in third-world countries where there are records we can’t access so we can compare the data. I think the next highest occurrence of serial killers after the U.S. is England. I want to say Australia is up there as well.
Seems like it’s higher in more modernized countries. Why do you think that is?
LB: There are lots of theories there too. A lot of people think it’s the overwhelming amount of violent video games, movies, and reporting in the news on violence, so we’re constantly getting flooded with violent stimuli and that could be affecting our psyche.
What other countries are dealing with this more effectively than the U.S.?
LB: This is actually what Newsom is trying to implement in California, but in Europe there’s more rehabilitation and focus on the individual. There are more programs after they’re paroled to help them get a job and get settled. There are also more therapeutic programs in those prison systems to help the offender that are more based on fixing and helping someone so they don’t keep committing crimes that may lead to more serious crimes later on.
Do you think serial killers can be rehabilitated?
LB: I honestly don’t know. They will stop at some point and age out, but can they be rehabilitated prior to capture? I don’t know. I think forensic psychology is still too new and we’re still doing studies, trying to learn, and get a handle on this epidemic that’s just risen from the 1970s till now.
Who do you think the scariest killer is you’ve interviewed and why?
LB: Lawrence Bittaker because he’s one of the most sadistic serial killers in American history. Even FBI profiler John Douglas said he was the most vile creature he’s ever interviewed and the worst one. I can totally understand why he’d say that. He was a very hard one to interview and crack. He had a 138 IQ, so it was kind of like dancing with the devil. Very Hannibal Lecter-like.
What made Bittaker hard to crack? Was it because he liked to manipulate people?
LB: He was abandoned by his biological mother and his adopted parents kind of cut him off in his 20s. He had severe neglect and abandonment issues. When you approached him he came off very vicious, but over the years I kept cracking at that wall until I finally I got a huge break.
Do you remember how that breakthrough happened with him?
LB: I think it was really just persistence. I just didn’t take no for an answer, kept going, and I think in a way he respected that.
Bittaker passed away not too long ago. Do you think at the end he regretted anything?
LB: In our last interview, yes. That was the first time I’d seen remorse. He was hysterical. He was a skeleton at that point and dying. It had finally sunk in what he’d done and what was going to be on the other side for him for what he’d done. I’ve heard of other serial killers having that same type of thing right at the end of their lives and they’re like, “Oh my God, what have I done?” and it finally just hits them.
Has there been anyone you found impenetrable to your questions?
LB: Yes, Randy Kraft. He’s gay and will only talk to other men, so I hope to have a male colleague interview him.
Do you think all serial killers lack empathy?
LB: Not all of them. I’ve seen them be capable of empathy. It’s very strange; I have long debates with my partner, Dr. White, over this. It’s almost as if they pick and choose. They compartmentalize. They want someone who is a stranger they can depersonalize to themselves, but then they may also have a girlfriend, wife, or children where it’s back on. It’s almost like it’s split and odd to see, but it’s interesting for sure.
What do we know about how heredity plays into violent behavior like this?
LB: There are a couple theories. One that psychopathy, antisocial behavior is genetic. Another theory out there is about a “warrior gene,” where we’re primal beings and the warriors would go out and hunt, and in modern-day society we don’t really need that gene, but it’s still within us so they’ve done studies and found more violent tendencies among people who have this gene.
What do you think the biggest environmental influences are on this behavior besides neglect and abandonment?
LB: Physical or sexual abuse, but the neglect and being cut off from kids their own age is also a big one because their social abilities and coping skills don’t develop. That’s a huge factor because they’re not going through how children should learn and grow and that affects their emotional intelligence.
It seems like lots of kids went through that during COVID, and now there may be a whole generation of kids experiencing that.
LB: Right, you just don’t know what kinds of effects that’ll have later in life. Ages 1 through 5 is the most important age range of when that brain is developing and what happens to that child during that time will determine the rest of their life.
What do you think the biggest public misconception is about serial killers?
LB: I’d say it’s probably that they’re all psychopaths. That’s probably the biggest misconception, but Hollywood is also kind of crazy with how they’re depicted. I always laugh when I see someone like Zac Efron playing them. The way Hollywood portrays them all to be evil geniuses is not true.
What percentage of the serial killers you’ve interviewed have experienced childhood abuse?
LB: I would say at least 40 percent.
Didn’t BTK have a pretty normal upbringing though?
LB: Yes, there could’ve been something he’s hiding or not addressing through his childhood too. Sometimes traumatic memories get locked up. His sexual fetishes, especially his paraphilia, was so specific too, so that would’ve been developed some way in his childhood.
I remember hearing that BTK felt aroused when he watched a relative of his behead a chicken. Also, that he’d see old detective magazines with women in bondage on the cover that put nefarious thoughts in his mind. Do you think that’s what activated his compulsions or do you think his violent behavior would’ve come out no matter what he was exposed to?
LB: There is definitely something that activates it, but it’s funny you mentioned those detective magazines. That is the one thing I probably hear from 95 percent of them — that they all got a true detective magazine at some point. Back in the day there were no snuff films or porn or going on the internet and finding this kind of stuff, so where they would go was to those true detective magazines.
Now that the stimuli landscape has changed so much, how much do you think technology and the media is influencing violent behavior now?
LB: I think it’s getting more violent, even with the stuff that’s on TV, but now that there’s access to pornography with every type of fetish you can imagine and the dark web where a lot of them go now, that’s a huge factor of their crimes. When you’re mixing sex and violence together, those wires are going to get crossed and it’s very easy to cross with men when they’re starting at a young age.
What are the warning signs that children are developing serious psychological issues consistent with psychopathic behavior?
LB: Acting out. They’ll be very difficult to handle. They’ll have outbursts, but you’ll also see the child be cunning and manipulative. Now they call it a CU (callous-unemotional) children where it’s pretty much saying it’s a child with psychopathy. But those are the big signs — that there’ll be a lot of behavioral issues in childhood. It can be very hard for child psychologists to distinguish normal acting out from dangerous behavior because children act out for a number of reasons, like maybe divorce. A lot of times children are diagnosed as ADHD and they might have CU. They’re often so quick to give kids Ritalin. That actually controls impulse control with a CU child, so now once you take away that impulse control it makes them a bit more dangerous because they can sit and think and begin plotting more. For instance, I remember a CU child who pushed a kid into a pool and he pulled up a chair to watch the kid drown. The kid ended up being saved, but it’s that kind of stuff.
Do you think children are overmedicated now?
LB: I don’t know, but I think children who are bouncing off the walls are often given Ritalin and that doesn’t necessarily mean they have a condition that’d warrant that prescription.
What do you think is needed scientifically to understand more about what makes someone become a serial killer?
LB: That is the million-dollar question. Criminologists and forensic psychologists are working toward trying to find that X factor. It’s not going to be just one thing, but something that we know could cause this in a way we could stop this from developing during teenage years and lead to going on to commit a life of crime.
If you could wave a magic wand and change something about our criminal justice system, what would that be?
LB: Europe is doing rehabilitation and taking the time to help the offender before their crimes escalate and they reoffend. Look at their crime rates versus us. If I could wave a magic wand I’d have it more set up like that in our country and hopefully have the same lower rates of Europe as well.
Do you think we’ll ever get there someday? Our prison system is financially dependent on people coming into it or coming back so there’s no push for rehabilitation.
LB: I hope so, there’s so much money involved. I know Oregon is sending people over there to learn and come back and implement measures into their prisons. I’m hoping what’s happening in California and Oregon will serve as test runs to see if it’s effective and if we can implement it in more states.
What do you think is needed to deal with crime proactively instead of reactively?
LB: This is where we need criminologists and psychologists coming together and trying to figure out why we have crime rates rising and an epidemic of serial killers that started in the ’70s. Something’s happening within our culture. Look at the school shootings. Why is that happening in our culture now as well?
What do you think changed in the ’70s that made things take a turn for the worse?
LB: Theories have included everything from people who experienced WWII at such a young age, and how that affects someone’s psyche, to more violence in porn and having it be more publicly accessible.
If someone wanted to become a criminal profiler, what would you recommend they do?
LB: There are different avenues depending on what you want to do. Of course, college and majoring in something like abnormal psychology, forensic psychology, or criminal justice, but trying different internships and volunteer fieldwork to see what area you’d want to specialize in. A couple of my friends are doing hostage negotiation volunteering or volunteering at forensic hospitals. You should try a little of everything to become familiar with each branch and get a sense of if it’s something you want to pursue or not.
Are there any serial killers you wished you could’ve interviewed or haven’t interviewed yet?
LB: I would’ve liked to have interviewed Ted Bundy just from reading the interviews with him. Robert Hansen up in Alaska, who was playing The Most Dangerous Game by kidnapping girls, setting them loose, and hunting them. I’d liked to have interviewed him as well. Also, David Parker Ray because of the nature of his crimes.
Do you think there’s a growing mental health crisis in the U.S.?
LB: Yes, definitely. Pretty much everyone I know seems to have some sort of depression, anxiety, or something going on and is on medication for it. You’ve got to wonder what’s happening within our culture that’s causing this crisis we’re having.
What do you attribute that to?
LB: It’s different for everyone. I think COVID really hit a lot of people hard. I know from people in the field who were working at hospitals telling me that people were coming in for attempted suicide and depression. I think the financial aspect and inflation were big factors in that and just having the world turned upside down by COVID. I think it had some very bad effects we’re still reeling from.
Do you think other countries have a greater sense of family and civic duty than the U.S. and that’s why their crime rates are lower?
LB: When I was in Europe and Asia, there’s a big sense of family and community. Everyone got together for dinner and sat around and talked. There was a togetherness feeling that was just a different way of life. It’s an aspect we don’t really have here. It’s like a rat race every day here, it’s very materialistic, and it’s about money and status. That’s more of a focus here, but in other countries it’s about family and community.
You’re working on a book, right?
LB: Yes, I just handed in the first of a three-book series. It will be published soon.
How do you maintain such a balanced life when you’re exposed to so much negativity?
LB: I have amazing friends I can go out and decompress with and they get me away from the abyss a little. Also, my son who is almost 5 and going to do stuff with him helps get me out of the darkness.
What do you think the public can do to protect themselves?
LB: Always be aware of your surroundings. The biggest thing I’d always say is listen to your gut. We are primal beings and we can sense when something’s wrong. When you can feel that in you, listen to it. I think a lot of people just brush it off, but that’s what’s keeping you alive. If you have that feeling, it’s for a reason. It’s your instincts kicking in.
- Family: 5-year-old son
- First car: Pontiac Sunbird
- Last meal request: Filet mignon and lobster
- Required reading list:
- Sex-Related Homicide and Death Investigation: Practical and Clinical Perspectives, Second Edition (Practical Aspects of Criminal and Forensic Investigations) by Vernon J. Geberth
- Signature Killers by Robert Keppel
- The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success by Kevin Dutton
- Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us by Robert Hare
- Childhood crush: Ryan Phillippe
- Favorite song: “Lost” by Linkin Park
- How do you like your eggs? Over easy
- What’s the first strong liquor you ever had? Vodka
- Website
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